A break from me starting my interview with Kel and Dancer…
Posted by jaytomio on March 29, 2008
I recently was directed to a post at Pat’s blog and it speaks loudly regarding how busy I have been that I hadn’t seen it until today.
My feeling is that a lot of blogging has become a bit of shadow-posting in terms of relationships we may have with each other. Honestly, I don’t think anybody should care about such relationships, I don’t actively concern myself with such things but let me just clarify my thoughts a bit as it still seems odd for me to see my name in discussions where I’m not virtually present (and a bit flattering - be it positive or negative). You can think of some of the contemporary bloggers as a bit of the ‘old guard’ (for our generation at least, obviously there was a presence before) - we don’t always see eye to eye, hell sometimes we don’t even know if the other drowned in any given month but we each have our own goals and purposes and honestly the presence of one or the other doesn’t diminish what anyone else does. Nobody makes what I do harder, or more difficult indeed in the end it makes for a better product. I have certainly, and liberally, borrowed many ideas - one could look at the latest issue of Heliotrope and see that, and it’s not like I’m unaware that others didn’t see what I was doing at FBS and decided to run with it themselves.
In a separate regard, and to to make a bit of same epic epic-analogy think of Damon (one of the other FBS founders) and myself as Kelvaned and Dancer. We have always had our eyes on …I don’t want to call it the bigger picture, but the landscape we want to find ourselves at. This is no different than anyone else, I think Pat has aspirations to be a writer and his blog has/will aid in that goal. For myself, blogging has always been secondary - the taking of the steps to achieve our goals is my primary concern. Every now and then I will do a review and interview (working on three now) and it seems most people enjoy them, some don’t - well no biggie, I don’t really concern myself with it partly because I got tired of the circus. Perhaps only Pat may be able to relate to the degree that it occurred to me, but while it’s entirely flattering getting every ARC on the planet, mountains and mountains felt like responsibility being pushes into a hobby. I’m not a corporation, I was just a dude reading books and even at that time we had more plans than me reviewing 30 books a year. Then comes the dramas - you have this other side of the genre that are just fucking assholes - there is no getting around it. They may not be personally, but they want to present themselves as such and you don’t, even know it because their method is simply ignoring you. Legacy is a bad word, but mine has never been about reviews or blogging - it’s about FBS, Heliotrope and future plans as a whole. That’s not to say those aren’t worthwhile goals and aspirations - they were just never mine. I think I sometimes come off as disdainful to the newer crop, but that’s not the case because I don’t have the time to be disdainful - I co-own FBS, I read more short stories a year for Heliotrope than anybody could possibly imagine, and I do my own reviews/interviews as well. I assume everybody is doing their own thing and loving it - and if that is the case that’s optimal. I don’t know how to put this I don’t compare and lament over the difference of having different perspectives at say, FBS. We have Matt, Brian, Trin, Lawrence, Val, Amber Roxy, Jeremy, Patrick, Damon, Lifeinmoments, Rune, John Markely, Dragonwomant, John Markley, KCF, Maria, Craig (am I forgetting anyone?). That they are happy doing what they do and are having fun - that’s my only concern. If not, I assume they’d stop. Usually people don’t even tell me when something is going on (sometimes Larry does) and I often kind of grimace a bit when I’m referred to as ‘this type of blogger or reviewer’. I’m more about Jay presents (partly) Fantasybookspot.com, not about The Bodhisattva itself and I judge whatever success that I could partly claim ownership of with FBS. Like I think of FBS stuff and I don’t think of my stuff, I think about Matt D reviews, or Brian’s awesome Mystery article or having people like Trin involved who I knew in forums back in the day. I don’t really get invested in anything else as I have a lot on my ‘SF/F’ hobby plate that just happens to not include getting around every blog, site, book, magazine on the planet. I’m trying to take over the planet, not read about it!
I guess I just don’t care whether or not a Matt Cheney, Niall Harrison, John Clute, Paul Di Filippo, Jon Courtenay Grimwood, (all people’s whose online content I read and admire) don’t respect me, I don’t need to know Jeff VanderMeer approves of me as he introduces me to new comics now like he did (and still does) books. I didn’t need to know if Michael Moorcock has ever heard of me or if Cheryl Morgan knew and cared that I was lovin’ Emerald City. I was fucking geeked the hell out Mike would even communicate with me. I don’t need to know why I didn’t get a copy of City and Coin of Spice even when I coined the term DJ Cat V!
There is a question of relevance brought up that I think has some merit but ultimately if every blog and FBS disappeared - there would be no loss that would shake things up. Ultimately there is no relevance and we can use the example cited. Let’s take Gabe, who tends to fade in and out a bit - his relevance is based on who or what he may have motivated from others (good and bad) so when Pat notes William Lexner, Rob, or Gabe it is not a comment based on relevance because each of them know ultimately we are speaking of people of relevance not creating relevance ourselves and never truly being relevant to begin with. In some way questioning other’s relevance (record for relevance in a paragraph) makes the assumption one has it themselves. I hope I don’t give the impression of being aloof as to put it in perspective, I’m somebody who thinks damn Green Lantern maybe the best SF I read in the last few months as Geoff John’s space opera is making me just a little weak in the knees (with some evidence of moisture).
This is an awfully pitch-patch post and I apologize but my pretentious streak really wants to get online and play some Neverwinter Nights after I send a wave of questions for one of the interviews I’m doing but to clarify myself, and this is a repeat of what I said before: Pat should win the Hugo and I if I was to be completely honest I think a couple years ago I should have got more than 5 points (or what the fuck ever it was - and in truth I didn’t even know about it until months later when someone posted it - and my initial reaction was thinking how far the Hugo had fallen to have the Tomio even mentioned in passing, stepped on, with bubblegum and shit on the heel, and…you get my point). Since Pat brought it up, he’s right, we don’t see eye to eye on some things, which basically makes him just like anyone else (except Gabrielle Anwar - I agree with everything she may say). At any rate, if he does ever win I expect him to get a book deal and let me write the outro (not the intro - I’m better than that).
I say what I say to Damon on his bad days on the net: small potatoes. Do what you do, enjoy what you do - approval stems from self. It’s hard for me to really consider what the tens of thousands of visits at FBS this month thought of us. I have important things to worry about like my BAB progression and whether or not I should dual wield.
I don’t know Larry personally (and he dare say he didn’t like a Jonathan Carroll novel!) but all people (this means you too Cali) who were mentioned in the scripture of the prophet of Bakker have to look at each for other! Let it be, let it be…let it be. I just don’t know when this came about something other than fun.
…and you know what I fly Southwest airlines any chance I get when not walking the Azath.
On a side note, as I mentioned above, I’m working on several interviews if anyone wants an update -something for the Epic Minded.*
* Which coincidently is also the title of the New FBS LP featuring DJ Cat V - coming to your radio













March 29, 2008 at 3:37 pm
Speaking of blogs *and* Jonathan Carroll, have you ever seen the daily blog Carroll keeps on his website? It’s wonderful. http://www.jonathancarroll.com
March 29, 2008 at 5:09 pm
Whatever I miss Brian is sure to remind us all (regarding Carroll)
March 29, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Well, in my defense, I’ll just say that I didn’t like The Wooden Sea quite as much as I did Land of Laughs or White Apples. It’s far from bad, just not as good as the others I’ve read.
And as for the reviewing bit, I’m the type of person that always seeks to challenge assumptions. While reviewing/blogging/co-running a forum is far from the core of me (to see that, one would have to see me teaching special needs students), it is something that I can use to challenge myself and those without. While I certainly don’t need any stamps of approval/disapproval, it is nice to interact on occasion, in hopes of learning something, even if it’s that I should have gone much further.
But that approach isn’t suitable for many, I know. I understand, even if I won’t agree with them, why some like to take a “layman’s approach” to everything. Still doesn’t mean that on occasion I won’t have a bit of fun and challenge them to see if they’ll consider things more and come up with responses that will surprise both them and me. I do agree with your opening sentence referring to the “shadow relationships,” as that’s much of what’s going on. I interact with certain people, others interact with others, and there’s that overlapping circle spot where mutual interests lie. That’s the beauty of all of this.
But I admit without any shame that I review/blog to better myself and to interact with others. I hate to think of myself as writing “mediocre” reviews, etc., so onwards I press. After all, “he who’s not busy being born is busy dying.”
March 29, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Larry, I think my point is that their is never a need for defense (which I realize was just a reply to the Carroll statement - I’m getting quasi-meta here).
Certainly there are things I look at and think are wack, I just don’t know if it serves a purpose to pint them out and usually it’s not a universal situation where everything someone does is just gibberish. People have bad days, weeks, months, years - reviews articles, etc. There are few Robert Newcombs in reviewing and in the presence of such I react the same - I stop reading.
March 29, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Point taken. As for the Carroll, that was the picky side of me coming out. Didn’t want to risk my membership in the phantom Too Cool Club
I don’t what it is, but it seems that this is one of those days where many in the small SF circle have decided to blog about reviewing. Have you read Matthew Cheney or Jeff VanderMeer’s posts on the issue? Looks like I’ll be busy responding to their posts before returning to writing 2-3 reviews tonight.
And on a totally different subject, have you read Susan Palwick’s Shelter yet? I hope to finish it tonight, as this has been one of the more “personal” SFnal stories that I’ve read in some time. Hits rather close to home…or rather close to my job history of working with special needs childrens.
March 29, 2008 at 9:55 pm
No I haven’t, but I have found (I have only read on novels of hers) that I enjoy her short fiction a bit more.
Regarding Jeff and Matt’s posts. I believe Jeff and Matt have the best advice and offer the greatest insight into how to write Jeff VanderMeer and Matt Cheney reviews (or those that they want to read) and undoubtebly touch on basic aspects like truth and honesty that are (or should be) understood (if perhaps not at all practiced)
My feeling is as long is their is evidence of engagement, the rest comes down to taste/preference in that reviewer. The discussion of what is and what isn’t a good review I think is perhaps the wrong. What is in fact a review and what isn’t may be (something that I think Jeff tries to illustrate from the very beginning.
One could forsake the title ‘reviewer’ for ‘opinionator’ and probably navigate themselves away from a lot of senseless (albeit at times interesting) rambling.
From now on, FBS contributors will be called Shadowdancers.
March 29, 2008 at 10:55 pm
I’d rather pontificate than to opinionate, if I may use such a neologism.
While their suggestions (and mine earlier, which is what provoked Pat’s post, I think) are most valid for the writers themselves, I can’t help but to think that being exposed to such opinions presented in such a fashion can’t but help to give the reader and perhaps erstwhile reviewer/opinionator/pontificator/porn smuggler things to think about that may lead to more thinking, more dialogue, and once in a blue moon to less dog chasing tail-like scenes of circular arguments.
But I’m just one of those poor souls that likes to debate things without it devolving into the modern understanding of arguments.
March 29, 2008 at 11:34 pm
I just don’t think that accepting one side (or many) is the same as setting oneself against another (or many). Because the existence of Harriet Klausner doesn’t offend me (any longer) it doesn’t mean the existence of insert random awesome reviewer here does or vice versa. It’s not an issue of one or the other for me because not all reviews are written for me. Indeed, I can’t think of any book being reviewed by any person that would make me drop what I’m doing to go check out. In the end we are talking about reviews and I don’t know it’s kind of like talking about somebody’s (in the majority of cases in the blogosphere) hobby and how they engage in it.
We can dance around ‘the betterment for humanity, education and literary theory’ but I seriously doubt anybody gives a shit about those ideas when they are posting on there Science Fiction blogs about what they thought about Luke’s green lightsaber in a book they just read. Those are ideals that have other more fruitful avenues and venues to explore - sometimes it’s just talking about books we like.
Ultimately what is the goal? Respected, serious book reviewer/blogger?
I don’t know, it just doesn’t seem like much to me but I guess it is a discussion for people who are looking for that credibility from the outside, which is perfectly natural - but I just write what I feel like. If somebody wants to knock it - have at it. I just don’t think there is a crusade here - there are excellent reviewers out their for all types of fans and while I’d like all reviewers to be Nick Gevers or Michael Moorcock, I’d suggest that wouldn’t sit well with everybody
You know when I think middleground I think Of Dirda: Accomplished but never feels like he is being as ass.
March 30, 2008 at 1:38 am
My goal is different than that. It’s more to be better at a whole host of things that I do (most nowhere near related to literature) and part of my enjoyment comes from challenging myself and being challenged by others, something that not too many I’ve come across online are willing to do, I’ll admit. I certainly don’t want others to be carbon copies of myself or whoever else I might admire personally; their own voices ought to be good enough for any. Only problem with that is that some seem to be uncertain what that “voice” is or just why in the hell they’re reviewing on their own blogs in the first place; forums are just as good of a place for short takes as anywhere else.
March 30, 2008 at 6:52 am
I guess the issue of ‘voice; is something I’m not really concerned with (when self-reflecting). If anything, I’m quite aware I’m rather distinct - in that I feel reading a review of mine love hate, think it’s useless or earth shattering - is indeed a work of my own mind at that moment. If feel if somebody looks at 5 reviews of the same book (one of which I reviewed as well) I’ll be different (and perhaps all of them may be) - now it’s not something I strive for, I think one’s voice is a natural occurrence and by definition it (being everyone’s) will probably have its fans and detractors.
I look at Vandermeer’s list and I break a lot of those rules - but that’s my way of interpreting my own feelings (and as noted above, distinctly my way), I’m not going to close down the house because of it and on the flip side I hope he sticks to his guns and keeps doing what he does because it certainly works for him. Now, I’m not saying there can’t be or shouldn’t be progression - but it should be oraganic, on our own terms and natural - I broke into this hobby being myself and it’s the only way I’m going to dwell in it.
March 30, 2008 at 7:06 am
I’m not sure that I knew you were enjoying Emerald City at the time, but I always care. If you liked what I did, I am very pleased. Of course I’m also sorry about the many people who didn’t like it, but you can’t please all of the people…
If it is any consolation, I suspect I broke most, of not all, of Jeff’s rules at some point too. Some of them I suspect I broke often. But I have a sneaking suspicion that they are the sort of rules that most people will break, and almost anyone can be accused of breaking. I may write something about this tomorrow when I’m more awake.
March 30, 2008 at 9:31 am
Hey Cheryl,
I obviously have no intimate knowledge of what happened or the why in regards to Emerald City, but being somebody who runs a site I don’t think people realize how much work something like maintaining EC is. On a couple of occasions I’d talk to Damon and tell him I didn’t know you were able to maintain that pace (I also am not aware of the extent of the allocation of labor) - not even speaking of the great Monthly content but just in terms of being the daily hub. At any rate thanks for all you did, it was an inspiration for us and a great asset as a fan.
At any rate I think the old phrase you mention comes into play - you can’t please everyone and more specifically one shouldn’t try to target a specific group to please as often we are speaking of an incredible minority. If we look at it like this, if 1000’s of post popped up today at FBS saying how much they hate FBS it certainly looks like something - but if given the silent thousands who return it really doesn’t mean anything (I only speak of my own site to avoid talking about any other). It always looks impressive when there are 85 replies at a random livejournal but really in the big picture it means nothing. All of us who runs sites, blogs - whatever know the silent is the majority. There is much made of the negative but if you get anyone’s favorite 20 bloggers to reach a consensus that another is not relevant it still means nothing. What occurs is something I viewed as a cyclic occurrence with online ‘criticism” a the same 2 or 3 dozen people + 2d6 of interested unique parties (given the subject) get hot and bothered about something, trade links, see what Nick Mamatas has to say, try to see if any John Clute sentence from the last 2 decades supports them in some vague way - and hopes John Scalzi, Neil Gaiman or Cory Doctorow is interested enough to link/post about it. This is the height of topical genre discussion - a star for a week.
and that’s cool…
If people get off on that, I have no issue with it - and sometimes I enjoy reading that stuff. For myself, there is just a lot of product out there, that are going to strike people in a certain way and I don’t see any reason to feel offended by how people go about doing it. Now when we speak of the issue honesty and truth - of course that matters, but I refuse to believe there is a surplus of people who are faking (I believe Joe Sherry said something about this if it wasn’t him I apologize to him and the original author) it - we are all fans. You don’t put up with the shit that comes with maintaining a site we aren’t because I promise I’m not getting rich off it.
Larry,
What really comes into play is the sad part: the issue with patronship to publishers with a new group. I can hardly knock these people because what created FBS, Heliotrope, and our print/publishing goals is that some editors, authors and publishers reached out to us. It’s because an RA Salvatore and a KJ Bishop decided we were there time for a few minutes - it was because Jeff (VanderMeer) was willing to fuck with a site that probably was more out of his alley than he was used to, it was because of people like Sarah Ash looking out and giving a dude a chance to read LOLL. What you do with it is the issue and time tells. I can’t hardly be mad that others saw and are trying it as well. Now I think in many cases these publishers are really wasting their time and money - but it is their time and money and if you heard of some of the the publicity money allocated to some projects they definitely have money to burn. I question publishers cultivating buzz - as giving review copies to a dozen sites who get like a few hundred views a day is stupid - especially if you consider most of these sites share the same general audience. But it’s not my stupidity, or money - so I can’t say I care and ultimately (even if minutely given any case) it can’t hurt.
Until somebody is actually spending money and the time we do in this hobby - they can go to hell when trying to question our motivations or role. Like I said before, we aren’t backed by a major corporate entity: FBS, Heliotrope, and the future is blood sweat, tears and our wallets - and that what we bring to any project we do. So there is no hindsight and certainly not someone else’s that comes into play. That’s why we look at our product without the need for approval. That said there is progression, because you’d be hard pressed to find a site/entity that expands as regularly as we do into other niches (we have even more announcements coming soon - and have our eyes on more beyond that).
March 30, 2008 at 6:09 pm
As I said in response to you on my blog, I think we’re closer in agreement that it first appears. When I’ve urged another to try X, Y, or Z, it isn’t for them to become a “clone” or whatnot. It’s more along the lines of suggestions for self-improvement so if that person wanted to better some aspect of the writing/reviewing process (I suppose it’s akin to workshopping it, although I experienced it in a seminar form in school), then he/she could do so without aping things that worked for Joe Blow.
I too put in a helluva lot of work into developing wotmania’s OF section into what it is (although I’m slowly moving on from it due to reasons I won’t get into here), so I understand to a degree where you’re coming from. But if I had to wager any money, I would bet that a large part of the motivation for FBS, Heliotrope, etc. is that of self-improvement, of bettering what has been done, to expand and not to rest upon the laurels of the past. The laurel resting is something that does concern me to a slight degree (and only to a slight degree; I have much bigger fish to fry in my paying job), as I can’t help but to wonder if many reach a certain goal/plateau and they feel as though they may rest and not strive to improve themselves further. In some cases, I prod a bit, to see if that might help. Sometimes, I get swiped at and that’s the end of the matter; I move on. But sometimes something positive comes out of it and a dialogue emerges.
Self-improvement and self-progression are the name of the game. While I certainly don’t have FBS’s ambitions (being but a single person and not a team of people), I do have an ultimate goal that’s going to take a lifetime to reach. And that merely is to improve my engagement with the books, to become more discerning about what appeals to me and what does not, and maybe in the future to write a book about contemporary material culture that touches upon how speculative fiction and other literary genres have evolved within our changing material culture. That last topic alone is something that I feel has not been addressed adequately yet and I have the cojones to study, to learn, and to question in hopes of finding out more. Don’t need no others but myself to push on; they can’t push my ass enough as it is!
March 30, 2008 at 6:35 pm
Most of this discussion makes me want to leave genre altogether.
Jeff
March 30, 2008 at 7:08 pm
That’s the same conclusion we made a long time ago (for ourselves - not in terms of you)
March 30, 2008 at 7:25 pm
I’d leave it too, but I know it’s much worse in educational settings. I’m afraid I’m becoming institutionalized from all that. So…who’s gonna win the NBA Championship this year - Boston, Detroit, LA, or San Antonio? Time we got back to the important things, no?
March 30, 2008 at 7:30 pm
No way dude, American Idol - that’s what’s really important.
…and Robert Newcomb.
March 30, 2008 at 8:02 pm
No…the horrible singers are off the show now and as for Duke Newcomb…well, I do have #6 to read when I’m out of books to read. But I insist that you lead the way on that one
March 30, 2008 at 8:31 pm
I’ll send you books so you never run out to avoid that.
March 30, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Good thing that I have 1500 books to re-read/read for the first time! Although if you could swing some more Italian editions of Eco’s work over here, I’d appreciate it
March 30, 2008 at 8:41 pm
I can swing that no problem - you talking any editions or hardcover in particular?
March 30, 2008 at 8:51 pm
[...] VanderMeer and Timmi Duchamp all speculating about what makes a good review, and a response from Jay Tomio that sounded a little tired and grumpy. I suspect I know how Jay feels. Sometimes it seems like the [...]
March 30, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Well, I have the tradebacks for Il Nome della Rosa and Il Pendolo di Foucault, so I’m fairly well set. But I guess you’d get a first edition hardcover of Il Nome to keep me away from the Duke, huh?
March 30, 2008 at 9:14 pm
I’ll be on the lookout if I see something random though and let you know when/if I pick them up next time I hit the mall.
March 30, 2008 at 9:24 pm
OK, thanks! By the way, have you seen how much they are charging for 1st editions of The Tain? Hasn’t been but 5 years and I see people asking $600 for the hardcover and over $300 for the paperback! Crazy world. Half-tempted to sell my copies of that and of Erikson’s novellas since I can read the stories elsewhere for a cheaper price.
March 30, 2008 at 9:40 pm
[...] that makes life easier Well, I was mulling the idea of posting a response to all the posts about reviews that popped up in the last day or so, but then Cheryl Morgan wrote a post I [...]
March 31, 2008 at 5:55 am
I have a first edition copy of The Tain and didn’t realize the prices being sought. Thanks for the info.
April 1, 2008 at 1:52 am
You can write the intro AND the outro, no problem!
As always, it’s cool to read your thoughts pertaining to this and other things. The Blogosphere is a poorer place without you!